Kippy, I have that book (somewhere) but haven't yet managed to read it, which is why I didn't mention it here. Thanks for the reminder and for stopping by today. Sending love.
Thank you, Darrell. That example has been floating around the interwebs for a while now, without any verification of its authenticity. Still good for a smile (and a grimace) though.
Okay. Okay. As someone raised on AP, I was on the other side. But by the time I read about the grandfather’s family, I was convinced there was definitely merit.
I knew there would be someone in the crowd of an AP-bent. I hope I made it clear that I think there's a place for both styles. If I were a typesetter, or working with regular, urgent deadlines, I'm sure I'd lean that way, too. Thanks for reading, Teresa!
“Don’t ruin a good story with the facts.” That gave me a big laugh. I am also a fan of the OC, and discussions of it turn me into a snobby dork. It's ok. I own it.
Perhaps I'll have you join our forthcoming dinner party -- the one where the husband launches into his great story. Four stink-eyes is better than two! 😁
Oh Elizabeth, I've learned SOOOOOOO MUCH from this! Thank you so much - I'm saving this post to refer to again (and again, and again).....
I am not a habitual user of the Oxford comma, although I make exceptions when its absence leaves my words open to being misconstrued. I don't enjoy the use of them for the sake of it, though - I would, for instance, write 'I went to the supermarket and bought apples, eggs and oranges' rather than 'and bought apples, eggs, and oranges'.
Something I don't like is when - in the context of being used as brackets/parentheses - commas appear singly rather than as a pair:
'My friend lives in Austin, Texas, and has done so for many years.'
'My friend lives in Austin, Texas and has done so for many years.'
The second version drives me nuts!
I'm not sure either instance - either the serial comma or the parentheses commas - demonstrates the Oxford comma as such, but you've certainly given my brain something to have a long, hard talk with itself about!
Ah, Rebecca, you're a gem. Here's something you didn't learn, because it didn't make the final edits: Despite the name, the Oxford comma is not standard practice in the UK, except to prevent ambiguity. How sensible! On the other hand, those of us of a certain age (or educational style) in the U.S. learned it as grammatical requirement, so leaving it out is apt to bring up reminders of red marks on our papers.
Oh gosh, I knew this without knowing it - in fact, before I'd written my response to your post I actually looked up 'Oxford comma' expecting it to say 'doesn't really exist in British English' and discovered to my surprise that it was named after the OED - the Oxford English Dictionary - and thought 'hmmmm, well, it MUST be a thing over here then, even though I don't use it in my everyday language' - but gosh, you've just reassured me immensely by telling me that it isn't standard practice in the UK except to prevent ambiguity, which in fact is the only context in which I catch myself using it! I feel very much better now! 🤣
I love the idiosyncrasies of our different versions of our fabulous common language, and have learned so much from your post and your response to my comment! Thank you. xxx
Great, and timely, Elizabeth. I just spent some time putting the Oxford comma in, taking it out, and putting it back into a Substack note, not because I don’t believe in or like the Oxford comma; I do, very much! (I also love semi-colons lol) The question was how related did I feel two items in my list were. It was a really close call!
Also, I think you just highlighted my biggest recurring marital flash point. My wife very much believes that generalities in communication are good enough, and I believe that accuracy will keep us out of trouble. Ironically, it is my insistence on accuracy that GETS us into trouble! 😆🤣
What a coincidence, Don. Thanks for sharing that. I hope it's clear that I'm no purist. Like the memorable line in Pirates of the Caribbean, "The code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules." I will say this: When in doubt, I leave it IN.
That difference in communication styles between you and your wife is, I suspect, a frequent topic of marital discussion before, during, and after caffeine. It might even bring up an urge for other kinds of beverages! Good that you're muddling through it, and great to see you here in the comments.
I’m so glad you wrote this. I’m a medical and legal transcriptionist who has always used the Oxford comma in anything I transcribe or write. It was drummed into us in school many decades ago, although I didn’t know what it was called until recently. It prevents confusion, and I even think it looks better on the page. Thank you, Oxford comma warrior!
You've hit on what I think is a key point, Barbara: many of us were taught to use it, and to us, a sentence looks wrong when it's left out. In my experience, the Oxford comma is more likely to add clarity than confusion, which I can't say is true the other way around.
Beautiful, and thoughtful, exposé. Lately my editors have been pitching out my commas as if they were, I dunno, chaff. I take their advice, then put them slowly back in. I like the idea of slowing down. Commas as speed bumps. I like it so much so that I employ every splinter at my disposal - the n-dash, the m-dash, semi-colons, hard returns, spaces between paragraphs. It's not like we're writing terms of service agreements, right? Take time to smell, roses. Is what I say. Ha!
Resist the comma pitching!! 🫠 Thank you for doing what you can on the punctuational front lines, Stew. If you've not noticed, I'm in the trenches with you, though I'll admit that I sometimes play fast and loose with what I think I know. Heck, I just learned the difference between all those dashes in rather recent past. But I'll never pass up up a sweet smelling rose. Thanks so much for your "service." In pause we trust.
What a delightful read this morning! I love the Oxford comma as it forces me to slow down ,pause, and consider what I' m reading instead of skimming! Anything that slows down my racing brain these days is welcome.
Thank you, Susan. It makes me smile knowing we're spending a morning together. Yes, you and are are in full alignment on grasping at all the tools we have to calm the monkey mind. So glad you're here to share that with me.
I think you know that, yesterday, I read the headline but had NOT YET gotten the complete Oxford-level lesson in proper punctuation. You honestly have such a gift and it shows here in particular with perfect humor. Our language is an amazing thing, should we use it correctly...~J
I'm grateful you "get" what comes out of me onto the page, Janice, and appreciate the sweet comment. Language fascinates me, and often makes me laugh out loud. If you've not run across them before, check out The Language Nerds on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.language.nerds
I’m a sparing user of the Oxford comma. It stays only if it prevents confusion. And yet in general I’m a comma maximalist. Wherever I would pause, I place a comma. This is not the way punctuation is evolving. My comma philosophy has more to do with whim than sense.
Rona, you have enough (l)earned knowledge that I'm sure your whims are unlikely to go off the rails. I guess your foundational education was in the U.S., but it's interesting that, as in the UK, Canada doesn't use the Oxford comma except to avoid ambiguity. So, you're following cultural norms, too! Thanks for joining the conversation.
I'm a fan of the Oxford comma, for sure. I'm a stickler for commas. I notice all the run-on sentence and comma splice problems I run into in things I read. I have come to understand this makes me really old-school in my approaches, but I have to admit that I do really notice these things.
When I was in my first or second year of college (I don't recall now), I thought I wanted to pursue a career in writing, so I took the exam required for admittance to the School of Journalism. And I failed! The assignment was to write a letter to someone explaining why they should visit your hometown. I should have known better, I suppose, but for me, letter writing is different from essay writing is different from research paper writing. I'm sure my use of punctuation and sentence structure were all over the place. No wonder they didn't give me a slot. But I look at where writing has come (gone?) in the 40+ years since and think I'd probably pass that test now. The rules have become more like guidelines. ☺️
Oh, and please don't look too closely at my pieces, Amy. Sometimes (this one a case in point), I care more about getting it right than others!
Hey Elizabeth, being Dutch I've never liked the Oxford comma - it separates rather than includes... It's a style figure that perhaps sits better in different writing genres than others, but you make a compelling case - thanks for this passionate overview!
Passionate overview -- so diplomatic. ☺️ Thanks, Eline, for bearing with me. This exercise has illuminated how much the U.S. differs from most other countries in this regard. Fascinating if not entirely surprising. We're nothing if not defiant.
I know, at a French dinner yesterday we were talking about how language, expression and even personality are so intricately interwoven... Even having done my PhD at a London university, I often feel I cannot fully 'grasp' all the nuances of English, which leads to interesting 'hesitations' in voicing thoughts and feelings (as to not step on anyone's toes unwittingly). On the other hand, I enjoy some creative licence to be inventive and playful, widening the parameters of language by being a non-native speaker... For me dialogue remains key, as long as we keep listening to each other - otherwise language misses the point!
"Eats, Shoots and Leaves" by Lynn Truss, early 2000s.
As a firm believer in necessary Oxford commas, this was a treat to read. As was your piece, Elizabeth! Thank you.
Kippy, I have that book (somewhere) but haven't yet managed to read it, which is why I didn't mention it here. Thanks for the reminder and for stopping by today. Sending love.
“This book is dedicated to my parents, Ayn Rand and God.” Frightening union!! Thanks for the laughs.
Thank you, Darrell. That example has been floating around the interwebs for a while now, without any verification of its authenticity. Still good for a smile (and a grimace) though.
Okay. Okay. As someone raised on AP, I was on the other side. But by the time I read about the grandfather’s family, I was convinced there was definitely merit.
I knew there would be someone in the crowd of an AP-bent. I hope I made it clear that I think there's a place for both styles. If I were a typesetter, or working with regular, urgent deadlines, I'm sure I'd lean that way, too. Thanks for reading, Teresa!
I think it’s more what was beaten into my head in journalism school, to be honest. ;)
“Don’t ruin a good story with the facts.” That gave me a big laugh. I am also a fan of the OC, and discussions of it turn me into a snobby dork. It's ok. I own it.
Perhaps I'll have you join our forthcoming dinner party -- the one where the husband launches into his great story. Four stink-eyes is better than two! 😁
Great to have you here, Eileen.
You made me laugh and that’s rare these days!
Elaine, that is a day-making comment right there. Thank you so much, and I am very, very glad to know this brought you some levity.
If only for the title this is perfection. And the rest is great too. But that title earned a guffaw. Thank you.
Whatever it takes, right? Steven, I delight in knowing you were laughing with me today. Thank you.
Oh Elizabeth, I've learned SOOOOOOO MUCH from this! Thank you so much - I'm saving this post to refer to again (and again, and again).....
I am not a habitual user of the Oxford comma, although I make exceptions when its absence leaves my words open to being misconstrued. I don't enjoy the use of them for the sake of it, though - I would, for instance, write 'I went to the supermarket and bought apples, eggs and oranges' rather than 'and bought apples, eggs, and oranges'.
Something I don't like is when - in the context of being used as brackets/parentheses - commas appear singly rather than as a pair:
'My friend lives in Austin, Texas, and has done so for many years.'
'My friend lives in Austin, Texas and has done so for many years.'
The second version drives me nuts!
I'm not sure either instance - either the serial comma or the parentheses commas - demonstrates the Oxford comma as such, but you've certainly given my brain something to have a long, hard talk with itself about!
A fantastic post!
Ah, Rebecca, you're a gem. Here's something you didn't learn, because it didn't make the final edits: Despite the name, the Oxford comma is not standard practice in the UK, except to prevent ambiguity. How sensible! On the other hand, those of us of a certain age (or educational style) in the U.S. learned it as grammatical requirement, so leaving it out is apt to bring up reminders of red marks on our papers.
Oh gosh, I knew this without knowing it - in fact, before I'd written my response to your post I actually looked up 'Oxford comma' expecting it to say 'doesn't really exist in British English' and discovered to my surprise that it was named after the OED - the Oxford English Dictionary - and thought 'hmmmm, well, it MUST be a thing over here then, even though I don't use it in my everyday language' - but gosh, you've just reassured me immensely by telling me that it isn't standard practice in the UK except to prevent ambiguity, which in fact is the only context in which I catch myself using it! I feel very much better now! 🤣
I love the idiosyncrasies of our different versions of our fabulous common language, and have learned so much from your post and your response to my comment! Thank you. xxx
Great, and timely, Elizabeth. I just spent some time putting the Oxford comma in, taking it out, and putting it back into a Substack note, not because I don’t believe in or like the Oxford comma; I do, very much! (I also love semi-colons lol) The question was how related did I feel two items in my list were. It was a really close call!
Also, I think you just highlighted my biggest recurring marital flash point. My wife very much believes that generalities in communication are good enough, and I believe that accuracy will keep us out of trouble. Ironically, it is my insistence on accuracy that GETS us into trouble! 😆🤣
What a coincidence, Don. Thanks for sharing that. I hope it's clear that I'm no purist. Like the memorable line in Pirates of the Caribbean, "The code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules." I will say this: When in doubt, I leave it IN.
That difference in communication styles between you and your wife is, I suspect, a frequent topic of marital discussion before, during, and after caffeine. It might even bring up an urge for other kinds of beverages! Good that you're muddling through it, and great to see you here in the comments.
I love the Oxford comma!
I had a feeling you might. Thanks, Prue.
I’m so glad you wrote this. I’m a medical and legal transcriptionist who has always used the Oxford comma in anything I transcribe or write. It was drummed into us in school many decades ago, although I didn’t know what it was called until recently. It prevents confusion, and I even think it looks better on the page. Thank you, Oxford comma warrior!
You've hit on what I think is a key point, Barbara: many of us were taught to use it, and to us, a sentence looks wrong when it's left out. In my experience, the Oxford comma is more likely to add clarity than confusion, which I can't say is true the other way around.
Thanks for stopping by today!
Beautiful, and thoughtful, exposé. Lately my editors have been pitching out my commas as if they were, I dunno, chaff. I take their advice, then put them slowly back in. I like the idea of slowing down. Commas as speed bumps. I like it so much so that I employ every splinter at my disposal - the n-dash, the m-dash, semi-colons, hard returns, spaces between paragraphs. It's not like we're writing terms of service agreements, right? Take time to smell, roses. Is what I say. Ha!
Resist the comma pitching!! 🫠 Thank you for doing what you can on the punctuational front lines, Stew. If you've not noticed, I'm in the trenches with you, though I'll admit that I sometimes play fast and loose with what I think I know. Heck, I just learned the difference between all those dashes in rather recent past. But I'll never pass up up a sweet smelling rose. Thanks so much for your "service." In pause we trust.
What a delightful read this morning! I love the Oxford comma as it forces me to slow down ,pause, and consider what I' m reading instead of skimming! Anything that slows down my racing brain these days is welcome.
Thank you, Susan. It makes me smile knowing we're spending a morning together. Yes, you and are are in full alignment on grasping at all the tools we have to calm the monkey mind. So glad you're here to share that with me.
I think you know that, yesterday, I read the headline but had NOT YET gotten the complete Oxford-level lesson in proper punctuation. You honestly have such a gift and it shows here in particular with perfect humor. Our language is an amazing thing, should we use it correctly...~J
I'm grateful you "get" what comes out of me onto the page, Janice, and appreciate the sweet comment. Language fascinates me, and often makes me laugh out loud. If you've not run across them before, check out The Language Nerds on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.language.nerds
I’m a sparing user of the Oxford comma. It stays only if it prevents confusion. And yet in general I’m a comma maximalist. Wherever I would pause, I place a comma. This is not the way punctuation is evolving. My comma philosophy has more to do with whim than sense.
Rona, you have enough (l)earned knowledge that I'm sure your whims are unlikely to go off the rails. I guess your foundational education was in the U.S., but it's interesting that, as in the UK, Canada doesn't use the Oxford comma except to avoid ambiguity. So, you're following cultural norms, too! Thanks for joining the conversation.
I'm a fan of the Oxford comma, for sure. I'm a stickler for commas. I notice all the run-on sentence and comma splice problems I run into in things I read. I have come to understand this makes me really old-school in my approaches, but I have to admit that I do really notice these things.
When I was in my first or second year of college (I don't recall now), I thought I wanted to pursue a career in writing, so I took the exam required for admittance to the School of Journalism. And I failed! The assignment was to write a letter to someone explaining why they should visit your hometown. I should have known better, I suppose, but for me, letter writing is different from essay writing is different from research paper writing. I'm sure my use of punctuation and sentence structure were all over the place. No wonder they didn't give me a slot. But I look at where writing has come (gone?) in the 40+ years since and think I'd probably pass that test now. The rules have become more like guidelines. ☺️
Oh, and please don't look too closely at my pieces, Amy. Sometimes (this one a case in point), I care more about getting it right than others!
Thanks so much for your comment.
Hey Elizabeth, being Dutch I've never liked the Oxford comma - it separates rather than includes... It's a style figure that perhaps sits better in different writing genres than others, but you make a compelling case - thanks for this passionate overview!
Passionate overview -- so diplomatic. ☺️ Thanks, Eline, for bearing with me. This exercise has illuminated how much the U.S. differs from most other countries in this regard. Fascinating if not entirely surprising. We're nothing if not defiant.
I know, at a French dinner yesterday we were talking about how language, expression and even personality are so intricately interwoven... Even having done my PhD at a London university, I often feel I cannot fully 'grasp' all the nuances of English, which leads to interesting 'hesitations' in voicing thoughts and feelings (as to not step on anyone's toes unwittingly). On the other hand, I enjoy some creative licence to be inventive and playful, widening the parameters of language by being a non-native speaker... For me dialogue remains key, as long as we keep listening to each other - otherwise language misses the point!
Listening -- so much yes!